Press Release
May 23, 2012

Senate Minority Leader Alan Peter S. Cayetano
Transcript of interview with Pia Hontiveros

ASC: Magandang hapon, Pia, at sa lahat ng ating mga kababayan. Unang-una it's about fairness, it's about the process, and it's about making the right decision. To be fair, kailangan 'yung buong side ng depensa marinig natin.

And of course the whole nation was relieved that the Chief Justice, pumayag siyang magpakita. Maraming nag-comment na pinayagan ng Senate President at naging masyadong liberal, that he can give his testimony that way. But on the other hand, 'di ba, isipin mo kung pinigilan siya or naging masyadong stringent, sasabihin ni CJ hindi niya nakwento 'yung buong istorya o 'yung depensa niya.

At the very least, 'yung tatlong oras na binigay sa kanya, walang makakapagsabi na hindi namin nabigay lahat ng opportunity marinig ito at namnamin namin or 'yung makita talaga namin 'yung point of view niya.

And that's why dinagdagan ko kanina, tinanong ko, "Will you submit, the defense, meaning any evidence to bolster or back-up the story?" Kasi alam naman natin Pia, 'di ba, kung umuwi ka nang gabing-gabi at tanungin nung kasama mo sa bahay, "Saan ka galing?" Ibang-iba 'yung sasabihin mong, "Basta, galing ako sa school" or "Galing ako sa opisina, basta", at iba 'yung sabihin mong "Galing ako sa opisina, tawagan mo pa 'yung ibang senador, tawagan mo pa 'yung gwardya dun, dun ako galing". 'Yon, may witness ka.

(TOPIC: All gov't officials should sign an Anti-Corruption Waiver')

Now the waiver. People have been asking me about that because of the challenge I threw to the First Gentleman. When I threw that challenge to the First Gentleman Mike Arroyo before, pinirmahan ko na 'yung waiver, at sabi ko, "Gamitin mo na".

Kasi ganun naman din ginagawa nila sa lahat ng kalaban nila. I've always believed na kapag public official ka, you must be ready to answer all and every question. I do think that everyone should sign a waiver, and I think valid 'yung tanong nilang ang administrasyong ito ba hinahabol 'yung mga kalaban niya.

Ang mali ay 'yung timing. Let's do that after the impeachment. After the impeachment, isa na ako sa nangungunang i-challenge ang Pangulo.

Unahin natin ang gabinete mo, and then everyone in the executive, legislative, judiciary, sign a waiver, or ilagay na natin sa batas iyan na kapag pumirma ka ng SALN mo, dapat yung Office of the Ombudsman, or the AMLC, or a small elite group, can look into your bank accounts, 'di ba or may sistema din na mag re-red light kung may mali sa bank account mo.

But during the impeachment, wala sa legal na proseso. Parang "Payag akong kasuhan mo ako kung lahat kakasuhan mo." How many times has the Supreme Court decided, and how many times had the lower courts decided on this?

Remember the time of Mayor Sanchez? Nangyari 'yan. Hinabol siya sa SALN, isa sa mga depensa niya 'yan, na sa dami-dami ng mayor, at governor, baranggay captain, na hindi nag-file ng SALN, bakit daw siya lang ang hinahabol. Sabi ng Korte, ang remedy, habulin mo rin 'yung iba na hindi sumunod sa SALN.

Hindi ka makakaligtas just because ikaw lang. So the CJ cannot say "I will not show it because everyone else will not show it."

(TOPIC: We cannot be emotional with regard to the alleged 'walkout')

Now on the other issues, Pia, payagan ninyo ako na hindi ako mag-comment because we have to guard na hindi kami maging emotional sa nangyari kahapon sa alleged walkout, because next week magde-decide na kami eh. We have to decide based on the evidence submitted and the facts gathered, and not on whether or not na-insulto kami sa nangyari noong Day 40.

PIA: Before I ask some follow-up questions about what you just said, I wanted to ask first about how you came to the decision that you will give him until Friday to appear.

ASC: Well unang-una, consistent ito sa agreement namin weeks ago. Remember weeks ago, we've been asking, "Defense, gaano katagal ang kailangan mo? Ito ang nagugol na oras ng prosecution". And then, remember, ilang beses humingi ng continuance ang depensa at bigay naman kami ng bigay. Kaya ilang beses tayo walang hearing.

Noong Day 40, hindi naman nangyari na during his testimony bigla siyang hindi maganda ang pakiramdam. It wasn't medical emergency at that point in time. He stood up and left. So as far as we are concerned, we gave him all the time to give his story.

Afterwards, may question whether or not he wants to be cross-examined. So after the prosecution said that they are willing to waive cross-examination anyway, and I asked the defense naman, "Do you want to submit any other documentary evidence", and binigyan naman sila until Friday, hindi maaapektuhan 'yung fairness kung hanggang Friday lang ang ibibigay namin.

On the other hand, if we give him an unlimited time, tatagal tayo. Baka after SONA na, nag-i-impeachment pa rin. Kawawa naman 'yung bansa natin because there's so many legislative and policy matters left hanging because the focus of the nation and of the Senate, especially the Impeachment Court, ay itong impeachment. But it is really balancing the schedule between fairness.

PIA: Fairness, 'yung parang 48 hours. Because that's what the doctor also said, he needs to be in the ICU for 48 hours.

ASC: When he stood up yesterday he was okay.

(TOPIC: Defense chose to bank on Corona's Credibility) PIA: You're asking the defense what documents are you going to be bringing, but what are you looking for anything in particular?

ASC: Anything to bolster the story. Kasi nagbigay siya ng side niya. Ito 'yung kwento niya, ito 'yung nangyari, according to the CJ. We did not take the word of the prosecution nung sinabi nilang forty five properties, nangalkal kami, patingin nga nung titulo. 'Di ba?

Kaya nalaman na it was less than that. In the same manner, pagdating kay CJ, 'yung in-explain ko kanina, iba 'yung admissibility sa weight. 'Yung admissibility basta may material at relevant, tatanggapin mo. Ngayon, whether it is an excuse or a weighty argument is two different things.

Example, sinabi niya, nung late 60's pa lang, nag-i-ipon na sila ng dollars. 'Di ba nung 70's, 80's ang uso noon passbook? Kung mapapakita niya na may passbook, may 50,000 dollars na ako 1965, 1975 hundred thousand na ito, then it will show you na totoo 'yung story.

What I'm looking for as a senator-judge, maging sa prosecution, maging sa defense, ano 'yung theory mo? Ano 'yung istorya? Ano 'yung ebidensya mo to support it?

Kung sasabihin niyang, "Simple lang kami" or 'yung kanina, when we're not on the air, sinasabi natin 4 accounts. Okay 4 accounts, ano'ng laman nung accounts? Kasi pwedeng isang account 'yon, pwedeng walang account 'yon pero napakalaki nung account.

Kung sasabihin mo mali ang Ombudsman, walang 10 million pero hindi mo sasabihin kung magkano, mahirap. So what if 999, 999 ang laman? Theoretically tama ka, hindi 10 million. Now, if it's only 1,000 dollars, people will say na, "Eh bakit hindi mo buksan?" So it's not that we're being suspicious or not that we're being biased na parang "Ito istorya mo, ayaw naming maniwala" kung hindi we're also being fair to both sides.

(TOPIC: The most important thing is to make the right decision)

PIA: What you're trying to say here, as senator-judges, help us make the right decision also?

ASC: That's right. That's the most important thing, that we make the right decision. 'Di ba sinabi niya, 'yung isa niyang anak nasa Amerika. Kaya 'yung condo nito ay co-mingled. Paano pinadala 'yung pera dito? Iyan ba ay money-ordered? Iyan ba'y sa bank? Kapag pinakita niya, "O kita mo ang laman ng account namin para mataas ang interes, hundred thousand" o "Tingnan mo, ito mga pinadala ni Charina dito (o kung sinuman)", tapos sinabi niya 'yung savings ni ganito ganyan ganyan. 'Yon ang hinahanap namin.

PIA: So you look for like what do you call that, yung money order placements, the paperwork to show that the money came from here and went here?

ASC: Anything that can be used as hard evidence. The same thing na ginawa namin sa prosecution. You see how hard we were sa prosecution na pinapagalitan na sila nung nalaman namin na hindi 45 'yung properties, 'di ba?

(TOPIC: Mere arguments and arguments with evidence are two different things)

Noong sa bank accounts, ilang oras ang ginugol namin doon at kung paano namin, if I can use the word, "tirisin" ang lahat ng arguments nila. Mere arguments and arguments with evidence are two different things.

So in the same manner, we have to apply the same standard to the defense. Of course, this is true, that you are presumed innocent and it is also true that they have to prove their case. But assuming na may evidence na na pumasok, nag-iiba ngayon. You are not presumed innocent anymore. You have to refute the allegations against you.

Kaya kung sasabihin mo, "Alan, you are presumed innocent" and then dadating ako sa bahay na may lipstick dito, hindi na ako presumed innocent. Kapag napaliwanang ko, "Tingnan mo, lipstick ng mommy ko iyan, nag-kiss siya sa akin, tingnan mo pa 'yung video", then you go back to being innocent.

But when I say, "Basta maniwala ka on my credibility", then that's my lookout. 'Yung ginawa ng defense ngayon na sinabing it will now be based sa credibility ng CJ, I'm not saying that's not enough, I'm saying that we simple presented a lookout.

(TOPIC: Cayetano wishes to ask the Chief Justice for documentary evidence to back up his testimony)

PIA: Are you going to be one of the senator-judges who'll be holding clarificatory questions of Chief Justice?

ASC: I might, when he comes. Actually I would have asked him the same question I asked Justice Cuevas which is, "Sir, will you submit any other hard evidence, documentary or otherwise to prove your story, with all due respect. We're not saying you're lying or saying you're not telling the truth, but it would be easier for everyone if you submit."

Remember the alleged or the owner of the Marikina property, nung tinanong-tanong namin siya, "Ano pa ang ebidensya mo?", nagsabi pa siya ng mga tao. "Si ganito nabisita na ako, tingnan mo 'yung mga halaman ko". It is easier for you to believe or not believe based on the evidence submitted.

But just to say, "Simple kami, ito naipon namin," ganyan-ganyan 'di ba? And then 'yung kabila may ebidensya naman na sinasabi na hindi iyon totoo. That's why it is important to weigh the evidence. I don't want to say later on that we weighed the evidence this way or that way, because prinohibit namin 'yung isang side na mag-submit.

Kaya actually dapat pag-isipan ito ng depensa na hanggang mag-submit sila ng kaso nila. Some senators were saying sa google lang makikita natin kung magkano 'yung exchange rate at ang paniniwala ng iba it wasn't 2 is to 1 at that time as mentioned by the CJ in his testimony, so this is an inconsistent claim.

PIA: So what is it? At that time?

ASC: Someone was saying in the lounge that it was 3 point something, 3.9, but I haven't checked myself. So anything that is already on record we can verify ourselves. It wouldn't be crossing the line as judges. As we said, we don't want to make mistakes. But of course, if the defense will suggest these documentary evidence themselves then it would be easier for us to make the right decision.

(TOPIC: We do not want to speculate on Corona's next moves)

PIA: Do you believe that he will be back here on Friday, May 25?

ASC: I don't want to venture a guess or to speculate. Kasi 'yung cross-examination can make or break you. And I really believe that he really wants to be acquitted. I really believe that there are people who want to believe him, who want to believe his story after yesterday.

But to be able to do that, he has to back it up also with evidence. In the same way that there are people who wanted to believe the prosecution but didn't until the actual evidence, until the bank accounts were there.

PIA: But the Chief Justice's words, didn't it sound like "I don't want to be cross examined, I don't want to take questions from any of you senator-judges, and I'm leaving".

ASC: As a senator-judge, we have to disregard the emotion or any perception of what he was trying to say and just take it at face value. So maybe he was already feeling something but he didn't want to show it in front of the camera that's why he stood up and left. But the problem is, he was standing up while the court was still in session and as a witness, he was not excused or discharged.

(TOPIC: This is about building and protecting institutions)

PIA: Is the lockdown reasonable?

ASC: Remember how many times ninyo kaming in-interview during the Arroyo administration, during the rallies and impeachment? We've all been talking about building institutions.

The Aquino administration and even the opposition are saying that this is about building institutions - about faith in the process and faith in institutions.

The problem is kung papayag kaming bastusin ang impeachment court or hindi namin ma-control at masira 'yung impeachment court. Kapag ganoon, sisirain mo hindi lang 'yung impeachment court, kasama din 'yung senado at 'yung proseso.

Hindi sa kami ang nasampal nun, but we just want to make sure that we are of course a nation of laws and not of men, and that we have a court that has jurisdiction over this proceeding. They are impeachable officers and they should submit to that jurisdiction.

PIA: So let's wrap up now, so I'll just ask you muna Senator Alan for final words.

ASC: Siguro prayers lang for all the senator-judges. Of all the jobs in the world, isa sa pinakamahirap maging judge. And to know when someone's telling the truth at kailan hindi. Over the weekend, please really pray for all the senator-judges that we will make the right decision.

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