Transcript of interview with Senator Trillanes

On the resolution to investigate the alleged overpriced parking building

WEBB: Senator Antonio Trillanes IV, Chairman of the Civil Service and Government Reorganization Committee filed Senate Resolution 826, calling for the Senate probe into the construction of the controversial building and he now joins us in the studio. Senator Trillanes, Good Morning to you!

SAFT: Good Morning, Pinky!

WEBB: Good Morning! Let's understand the situation, it's normal that people find a resolution but let me just focus on the first question of Senator Nancy Binay. Why go into a resolution for investigation and why not impeachment complaint against the Vice President?

SAFT: We will get there. Once we are done with this investigation, if we find anomalies committed by the Vice President, then, we can use this as a basis for that impeachment complaint to be filed in the House of Representatives. But we are losing focus here. I just filed a resolution because there was a case of plunder filed against the Vice President and...

WEBB: ...before the Ombudsman.

SAFT: Yes. I believe this case is imbued with the public interest because it involves the Vice President and a potential president of the country. So, it's high time that we investigate this so that the public will know if these allegations are true. On our part as legislators, we are more interested in looking at possible loopholes in the procurement law so that we can legislate remedial measure so this won't happen again, if this is true.

WEBB: What is more important to you Senator to plug holes in the procurement law or is it really to find out if the vice president, plain and simple, a corrupt or not?

SAFT: There's a public interest in both. The public information component of the Senate investigation is very useful. If we would recall, the PDAF scam in the Senate investigations conducted by Sen. TG Guingona was quite enlightening and informative and it practically shocked the Filipino people about the amounts involved, and the amounts stolen, and how they were stolen. They were able to study the manner of the witnesses like Benhur Luy and Janet Napoles and make their own opinions about the matter, and it is very important.

WEBB: So I guess in a way Senator after the PDAF controversy, the ruling of the Supreme Court on PDAF, and the ruling of the Supreme Court on DAP, you feel that this is just another subject person to look into on possible graft and plunder charges?

SAFT: Yes. It's part of the cause, this is what we do. We have investigated matters for so much less. Remember the amounts involved here would go up to at least to P2B, P1.5B to P2B...

WEBB: What do you mean, overpriced?

SAFT: Overpriced. That's a lot of money and to think that the Napoles scam, which shocked a lot of people, only involved hundreds of millions allegedly that went to the Senators.

WEBB: But the total it was P10B scam. But anyway, do you remember because I am trying to recall at a time Senator, even you were a Senator, you are still a Senator or in a military that such an investigation occurred. I mean, my recent memory is so bad. Was there anyone? A vice president that was investigated or a resolution was filed in the Senate or investigation? My question is what about yung courtesy that is accorded to public officials especially someone like the Vice President?

SAFT: There were at least two precedents for this, and it involved the president himself. We would recall former President Ramos attending a Senate investigation, and President Estrada also attended a Senate investigation. So, there are precedents for this. Now, as to filing a case, in particular against a candidate, they did that also to our party president, Senator Manny Villar in 2010. And that is even flimsier... WEBB: Which one was that, is that the Daang-Hari. Is that the one?

SAFT: Yes. And they found out later on that there's no corruption involved but they used that as a form of demolition against...

WEBB: This is not unusual, something like this, I guess. Based on precedence that you have mentioned to us today. The fact though, again let us put the facts what we know. This building, this new building in Makati they spent P2.6B. But let's clarify in the earlier reports although it was amended later on that, it was a parking building, it's not. It's a parking and office building. I believe there are five, a basement parking, five floors of parking and six floors I think of offices. It cost them P2.6B. First question is, you have former, mga kalaban sa pulitika ng mga Binay who filed this against the Binays. As a matter of fact, I think it was Mayor Junjun Binay who called them parang perpetual losers, talunan. Now they are saying it doesn't matter kung talunan kami o hindi, may kaso, gusto naming i-file. Does that speak of anything a little malicious probably to you that this is somebody who ran against Mayor Junjun Binay tapos ngayon nag-file po ng kaso.

SAFT: Probably, they can actually insinuate that on my resolution, that this is part of a demolition job but ultimately the evidence will speak for itself. If there is no evidence, then they can rightly say that this is a demolition job and I'm just trying to grandstand or whatever. But if there is an evidence of anomalies committed by the Vice President, then we would be right in conducting this investigation in the first place.

WEBB: What is the difference of filing this resolution hence investigation in the Senate vis-a-vis this case already filed before the Ombudsman?

SAFT: It doesn't preclude, these are two independent bodies. This case, again as I mentioned earlier, is imbued with public interest. We should know.

WEBB: Because of the personality?

SAFT: Yes, precisely. Remember that even when the Pork Barrel scam cases were already filed in Ombudsman we also continue to conduct hearings. Precisely, we have that public information component, aside from the legislative component. We are informing the public about what's happening in our country and it has a value because the society itself gets involved in policy making. WEBB: So number one, kalaban po sa pulitika ang nag file ng kaso before the Ombudsman. Number two, let's talk about this COA study that came out. I think that based on national statistics, the NSO stats a per square meter would cost about P7,000. Thus, this building should have cost P700-800million.

SAFT: No, around P200-million.

WEBB: P200-million. So, it costs them 2.6 million? But because it went, it progressed for a number of years, so yun po atang P7,000 per square meter umakyat po yan?

SAFT: Even assuming that this cost went up high as P20,000 per square meter, then it would only cost P600 million.

WEBB: Yes, dun po lumabas yung P600 million. Okay.

SAFT: Yes. So if you do the Math, they charge the government coffers P2.4-billion and the actual cost would cover between 300, so let's say P700 million. Then, they earned at least around 1.8 to 2 billion.

WEBB: But is that still the present value? P7,000 per square meter in Makati?

SAFT: No, we're talking about the construction cost. If you would ask the contractors, engineers, the architect...

WEBB: ...May ganon pa ba?

SAFT: Yes. For a carpark, the cost would be around P18,000 to P20,000. Now if you will be quite liberal in your...

WEBB: ...Numbers...

SAFT: ...Numbers you will raise it up to P30,000. That's twice.

WEBB: Kahit gawin mong 40, doblehin mo.

SAFT: P30,000 square meters, that would only cost around P1.2 at P40,000.

WEBB: P1.2 okay. But you were talking about a parking lot. Let's remember it's 5 floors parking, 6 floors office. So yung 6 floors na nandoon po sa taas, 'di hamak na mas malaki yun doon sa sinasabi nating posibleng maximum na P20,000.

SAFT: No. Ito nga ano, if you would ask the contractors for a carpark it would only cost P18-20,000. That's a very liberal estimate. Now for an office space that would cost around P25,000-30,000, that's again liberal, You won't go any higher than that. You have to compare it with the buildings adjacent to the property. Meron pong isang ano dun, building adjacent to that, it's a 40+ storey building and luxury condominium, it only cost P2-billion.

WEBB: What is that sir? I read it somewhere.

SAFT: Its' also in Makati. So that's the prevailing cost. Now, ito 11 storeys, it's only ¼ the size of that building pero ang cost nya is even higher. At the very least ganito yan, it's our job as senators to look into these things. Do you expect us to just sweep this thing under the rug, so we won't be accused to politicking or having conducting a demolition job against a front runner in the presidential elections? No, you want us to investigate this and find out if there's truth to the allegations.

WEBB: The timing I guess of the resolution raises some eyebrows to some people because Sen. Antonio Trillanes is a possible candidate in the 2016 elections whether president or vice president. I mean, from what I'm hearing, it could be a Cayetano-Trillanes tandem? That's what I'm hearing. Is that true?

SAFT: We are leaving it up to the party to decide which positions we will be running for. But we're still Senators of the Republic. Again I would ask the public, what do you expect us to do? Do you expect us to sweep these things under the rug? WEBB: So it doesn't matter, what you're saying. It doesn't matter even you obviously have, certainly have political plans, higher position to run for in the 2016 elections. You do this. Would you do this if it was your partymate that was in questioned as well?

SAFT: Yes.

WEBB: If it was Cayetano, if it was Bongbong Marcos, Villar, gagawin nyo ho ba yan?

SAFT: Yes. Ganyan po ang trabaho namin. And I stand by my track record. I went up against GMA, the corrupt GMA generals and Sen. Enrile, this time the Vice President. So, I don't know where this investigation will lead us but that's how it is at the moment.

WEBB: Well, I wanted to ask you. Are you really... I know you're saying it's the decision of the party but would you really go as high as the President or hanggang Vice President, yung possibility.

SAFT: You have to be ready for both because you cannot just say you are preparing to run for Vice President because as vice president you should be ready to assume the presidency. So, our level of preparation is individual at this point, meaning we are trying to study different policies of government. We're trying to come up with different prescriptions to the different policy problems of the country. So, at that level, we're doing that so that hopefully on the assumption that we get picked and we win, we will hit the ground running, we will know what to do. So, we have set out the vision, the plan of action, and so forth, so that's the level of preparation at this point.

WEBB: Yes, but who has the bigger chance of being the President between you or Sen. Alan for your party, Sir?

SAFT: Again, we will leave it up to the Party. It's too early...

WEBB: ...it's too early sir? It's 2014.

SAFT: Yes, but you know how things change quickly in politics. A month is too long because a lot of things can change so we will see at the proper time.

WEBB: But is it possible, a coalition with another party like the last election, Sir?

SAFT: Yes, but the plan for now of the Nationalista Party is to field our own standard bearer and our own ticket, but we're not closing our doors to any coalition with any party, except probably the party of Vice President Binay because we're ideologically opposed.

WEBB: So, anyone but UNA or the party of Binay, parang ganon. You can have a coalition with anyone except where Binay is.

SAFT: That's my personal position, that's not the position yet of the Party but you can feel that, you can sense that.

WEBB: You know way back... months ago, I spoke to Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano, he did say that yes he wants to run as President of 2016 and I've heard, you know rumors really going around, that he's President and you're Vice President.

SAFT: That could probably be the case but there are also other candidates in the Nacionalista Party.

WEBB: Like who?

SAFT: Like Sen. Bongbong Marcos, Sen. Manny Villar. I still believe that he's a viable candidate even though he's not really interested at this point but he's still there. So, we're not closing our doors. We're not picking any combination at this point but Sen. Alan Cayetano is very very capable to be President of this country.

WEBB: Are you capable to be Vice President?

SAFT: I would like to believe so.

WEBB: And you're ready for that ha? Alright, another thing though I think it was Sen. JV Ejercito who was saying that he was hoping that somehow Sen. Trillanes will remember the time when Binay had helped in your campaign as senator. Can you tell us more about that?

SAFT: Alam nyo po along the way, a lot of people have helped me but ultimately I owe everything, my position to the electorate, to the Filipino people, and I won't forget that. Now, while I would recognize all those people who helped me on my way to this position, it doesn't mean that I would turn my back to the mandate that was given to me. It doesn't mean na assuming ho na tinulungan ako ni Vice President Binay, hindi naman ibig sabihin non na I will just tolerate any acts of corruption that he will commit. So, hindi ho maganda yung ganyan yung nanunumbat but ganyan po sila.

WEBB: A, tinulungan ka ba niya, ni Vice President Binay?

SAFT: Probably, and I believe marami ho'ng tumulong kasi part ho kami ng genuine opposition. Yan si Sen. JV Estrada tumulong ho yan sa akin even si Sen. Jinggoy, marami ho ang tumulong kasi magkakasama ho kami in the fight against Gloria Macapagal Arroyo. But iba ho yung trabaho namin ngayon. We're Senators of the Republic, yung samahan namin socially should stay in the background, 'di ba ho? So, trabaho po ito, they should not look at this on a personal level.

WEBB: Okay. Didn't the COA also say, just going back to this building... that the cost was reasonable? Was that not enough for you?

SAFT: Okay, let's go back to that COA report. Based on the information that we gathered, the COA auditor who made that report is in fact included in the plunder case. So, she's a party of interest, so any report or any statement that she will make has no probative value because there is self-interest. There's a conflict of interest at the very least.

WEBB: Right. Would it be possible to get to a point na hindi po itong COA auditor ng Makati... I mean if you get a report from somebody else except from that particular auditor from Makati who was part of the filed before the Ombudsman. If somebody says from the COA office that this is reasonably priced, would that bury the case for you?

SAFT: You will just have to wait for the witnesses who will be presented and let's suspend our judgment until that time because we will be able to find out if the COA auditor is making up stories or is the whistle blowers are just making all these things up. So, all of these things will be pieced together during day of the hearing.

WEBB: And what about the issue on this being an old story that's patay na binubuhay pa?

TRILLANES: I hope the Vice President is not seeking refuge to that kind of line and dahil hindi ho maganda yan kasi kung ganyan ang sistema niya pag naging presidente yan there won't be any transparency. Ito sabi naman ni Sen. Binay di ba, "Bring it on", then we will bring it definitely.

WEBB: What happens to you, I mean also in that interview yesterday with I think that's Willard you said "well, if I fall flat on my face pasensya na lang." You think you will? I mean don't you even have a little sir evidence to make you feel a little bit assured that this case is really worth investigating.

TRILLANES: I do.

WEBB: Meron ba kayong hawak?

TRILLANES: I talked to the witnesses, I saw the documentary evidence and i felt it warranted an investigation but don't take my word for it. Judge for yourself once you get to see the evidence.

WEBB: Is there anything explosive that we're gonna hear from this sir without really preempting tell what it is? Meron ho ba? Magugulat ang tao?

TRILLANES: Let's just say that I'm standing on solid ground.

WEBB: Really?

TRILLANES: Yes.

WEBB: When you said witnesses, you have witnesses who?

TRILLANES: Witnesses and resource persons. Again, I don't want to preempt that, Pinky.

WEBB: I understand. Alright, senator very quickly daanan lang po natin yung medyo confusion sa Senado. So, you filed this Senate resolution. Senator Koko Pimentel, they want to create a subcommittee for this, bakit?

TRILLANES: Because Sen. TG Guingona, this is just a speculation, is handling different cases, remember the Napoles case and other case is pending in the Blue Ribbon Committee. So, it is allowed by the rules to create a subcommittee and this time it will be chaired by Sen. Koko Pimentel. I think that's the mixed message here. On one hand Sen. Binay is saying, "Bring it on", but on the other they have these allies, Senator Sotto, trying through a monkey wrench in this investigation. So, if there's nothing to hide then let's get this thing done with, and we'll see. The public will judge, they are intelligent enough to discern what is fabricated and what is real.

WEBB: What I'm questioning though, what I'm confused about this, if this is such an important case and that it is really important for you to have people accountable for anything they've done, any mistakes that they probably caused along the way., why not the Senate Blue Ribbon Committee look into this because just like the Napoles, the PDAF, etc. sir. It was the Senate Blue Ribbon Committee, bakit dito parang sandali, "wag kami".

TRILLANES: It is still the Senate Blue Committee.

WEBB: But there is a subcommittee.

TRILLANES: Yes, it is the same thing. There won't be any difference or whatsoever it will have the same scope and authority only a different presiding officer.

WEBB: Yeah, so it's a subcommittee under the Blue Ribbon Committee that's going to be headed by Sen. Koko Pimentel.Then again I asked my question if it's so important I guess it's a simple as this you were used to Sen. TG Guingona being the chairman of senate blue ribbon committee and looks into you know a possible shortcomings or mistakes, corruption, plunder, etc. and this is the vice president you're talking about. Parang I guess I just questioned why not really a just a senate blue ribbon committee and not a subcommittee of a senate blue ribbon committee. I mean doesn't it bother you?

TRILLANES: No.

WEBB: Parang hindi ba binibigyang importansya?

TRILLANES: No, not really because it will have the same importance as far as we are concerned and as far as the public is concerned, they won't be able to differentiate a subcommittee and actual Blue Ribbon Committee because in truth in fact there is no difference. A subcommittee is not diminished in any way, probably by label.

WEBB: By label, by name. Mas kilala ang senate blue ribbon committee. What is a subcommittee?

TRILLANES: Subcommittee of Blue Ribbon Committee.

WEBB: Ganun pa rin wala siyang sariling title. Okay next is the issue on Sen. Koko Pimentel, former partymate of Senator Binay UNA. PDP laban nga actually siya una, tapos nagkaron sila ng problema dahil sa pag-adopt ng UNA kay Sen. Migz Zubiri di ba umalis ngayon si Sen. Koko Primentel naging guest candidate ng Liberal party. Isn't there a conflict of interest there?

TRILLANES: Alam niyo ho, Sen. Koko Pimenetel is one of the most independent minded and trustworthy senators around. So, ako po na nag file ng resolution. I'm very comfortable with him being the Chairman. I would have been comfortable also with Sen. Guingona, but ganun po yung situation so ganun po.

WEBB: No problem?

TRILLANES: No problem.

WEBB: No problem with you?

TRILLANES: This investigation would be in good hands also under Sen. Koko Pimentel.

WEBB: Alright so that, it begins when?

TRILLANES: Next week, Wednesday.

WEBB: But what time? 10am?

TRILLANES: Yes.

WEBB: Who is the committee planning to invite?

TRILLANES: Well, there's a list already given to Sen. Koko Pimentel so they can issue invitations already.

WEBB: I guess we'll see what happens on Wednesday on the first day of the hearing on this case. The plunder case filed against Vice-President Jejomar Binay before the office of the Ombudsman and how many senators do you think will be attending, siyempre si Sen. Nancy Binay has inhibited herself for obvious reasons, paano po kaya yung iba? Do you think they will be as interested sir?

SAFT: I hope so because we are talking about the future of the country. This is the risk, in fact this is the least political thing to do for me, to file a resolution because Vice President Binay is a very popular political figure and the instinct of the traditional politician is to just suck up to the future powers being but...

WEBB: The possible future president of the Philippines...

SAFT: Yes, he is almost a sure win at least that's how they are acting, but this is our job. Again, we can't put this under the rug because we have to find out if Vice President Binay is a thief or not.

WEBB: Last question, on the survey of the MBC putting the Senate at the lowest of the 62 agencies, let me reiterate the verbatim what Sen. Nancy Binay did say, "parang mababa inyong rating tapos may ganitong pang mangyayaring imbestigasyon." How do you feel? is this something that could possibly lift the image of the senate or would this be something that could disappoint the people even more?

SAFT: As regards the result of the survey, it is what it is. We are very unpopular at the moment but we just have to keep on doing our jobs. We have to stay focused on what needs to be done and this investigation will not get in the way of our jobs. Yesterday I was sponsoring bills, there's a time for investigation and there's a time allotted for law making. So, we're doing our jobs at the same time while we are trying to oversee the proper jobs of the government.

WEBB: Sen. Antonio Trillanes thank you very much for coming over and to your political plans, good luck. Vice-president thing ano ba ito? 50-50, 60-40, 70-30? Nilalagay talaga kita sa Vice-President kasi yun talaga yung naririnig ko.

SAFT: I am willing to go wherever this road, this fate, will take me.

WEBB: But this is not your last. On 2016 are you graduating from the Senate?

SAFT: No. This is my second term. My term will end in 2019.

WEBB: I see. Alright, again, Sen. Antonio Trillanes thank you so much for your time and good luck sir.