Win transcript ambush interview on Build, Build, Build China Loans & Narco-List

Q: Pag sinabi pong patrimonial assets, ano po yun?

SEN WIN: Kapag sinabing patrimonial assets ibig sabihin nun ay assets that belong to the Filipino people.

Q: Can you explain, what would happen if we don't get to pay our loans to China?

SEN WIN: In normal circumstances, there is always an arbitration clause that specifies kung hindi tayo nag-agree, sino ang third party, kaninong batas, o anong bansa ang susundin para magkaroon tayo ng kasunduan. So that's actually standard whether it's private or public loan para may mechanism, para magkaayos. Depende yan, pag sa private, normally it's a third party, kapag sa government, it could be a third party or a government so depende yan.

Q: Sabi ng IBON, nasa advantage daw tayo kasi sa Chico River Project pero ang China daw ang arbitration committee at gagawin sa Beijing. What do you think?

SEN WIN: That's what I want to ask for that loan agreement para mabasa nating mabuti kung ano ang loan agreement but in my opinion, ang arbitration is a standard clause in all of the loans dahil nangyayari talagang kapag hindi tayo naga-agree at kung sino ang magiging entity na magde-decide kung sino ang tama o mali.

Q: Do you see a problem with that kasi Beijing daw ang arbitration na nasa agreement?

SEN WIN: To be honest, I have to read the provision kung ano ang specifically nasa agreement nila.

Q: But if it is Beijing Sir, ano ang consequences nun Sir?

SEN WIN: If it is Beijing, we have to make sure that the Court of Beijing is internationally compliant. Ibig sabihin, the standards should be international in terms of practices, in terms of laws dahil mayroon talaga yang international standards if you go to arbitration. That is why marami rin sa mga arbitration cases ay nasa Singapore or New York because these are international venues.

Q: Bakit hindi natin pwedeng i-assert doon sa kontrata na third party yung arbitration?

SEN WIN: That is part of the negotiation, DOF should negotiate na itong mga arbitration clauses should be favorable or at least fair for both parties, importante na fair wether ang nagpapahiram is China, Japan, or Korea--we just want a fair arbitration mechanism.

Q: What would happen if we don't get to pay the loans because one of the fear apprehensions is yung debt trap nga?

SEN WIN: I don't think may debt trap na nangyayari dito. Unang-una, yung debt trap ay pahiram sila ng pahiram at hindi natin mabayaran ang utang natin, that is its definition. If you look at our debt to GDP ratio, our interest payments to our budget, bumababa at bumababa siya. Maraming bansa ang gustong magpautang sa atin dahil ang ating fiscal rating ay very healthy at hindi tayo tulad ng ibang bansa na almost 100% ang debt to GDP ratio nila, we are only 40% at pababa pa, it will reach below 40 in the next few years. Ibig sabihin, hindi tayo papasok sa utang na hindi natin mababayaran. This administration and also the past administration has been managing our fiscal position quite properly.

SEN WIN: Looking at the past loans that we entered into, for example, yung North Rail Project na dumaan sa Valenzuela, China ang nagpahiram, noong hindi natuloy ang project, wala naman tayong binigay na collateral in terms of assets or in terms of land. What happened there was our government and China negotiated and they came into terms, normally ganyan ang nangyayari. I think in other loans also, negotiate as much as possible, define a middle ground, either you pay the penalty or you pay some amounts for the expenses incurred. But based on the research, wala pa kaming nakikitang assets ng gobyerno na binigay.

Q: What are the points in the hearing?

SEN WIN: First of all, nakita ko dito sa hearing na diversified ang ating loan portfolio, hindi tayo solely China, solely Japan, solely World Bank or ADB, we are diversified. So hindi tayo papasok sa isang scenario na nakasalalay lang tayo sa isang bansa. This is intentional para hindi nga tayo relying in one country. Second, the interest rates presented earlier, it is true that Japan is the cheapest but the funds available from Japan is also limited. Ibig sabihin, hindi niya rin kayang pahiramin tayo ng 2.1 trillion pesos kaya tayo pumupunta sa ibang lending institutions like ADB, World Bank and China at this point. Kanina, prinisent din ang interest rates between China, ADB and World Bank, lumalabas na ang ADB is about 3.6% more or less. On China, at the max is 2-3% so in other words, China is within that range pagdating sa interest rates. In terms of maturity or tenure, halos ganun din eh 15-20 years so halos naglalaro ang China loans between the loans that is being offered by ADB and the World Bank.

Q: You mentioned transparency earlier, ano sa tingin niyo ang kulang in terms of transparency?

SEN WIN: Yun talaga ang pinakamalaking pagkukulang ng NEDA at DOF, dahil alam natin ngayon na maraming agam-agam pagdating sa loans coming from China. More so that the government needs to be transparent in terms of the contracts being entered into as well as the process, it is very important. Inaamin naman ng NEDA na kulang yung information na binibigay at ako, personally, I went through the website para maintindihan ko and that will also help the public understand kung ano ba ang pinapasok nating kontrata, especially about loans. We have to understand that itong mga utang na ito dahil tayo rin ang magbabayad nito, it is our payment to the government through taxes.

Q: May nakikita kayong problema doon sa three contractors na kailangang Chinese contractors?

SEN WIN: In tied loans, nagkaroon tayo ng hearing dito. Yung loans na pinapahiram sa atin ay mura pero gusto nila ay contractor nila. In the past, nakita ko ang evolution niyan. In the past, isa lang ang binibigay, whether Japan or other countries pero ngayon may bagong proseso na, tatlo na ang binibigay nila at pipili tayo doon sa tatlo. May bidding na ginagawa para malaman kung sino ang pinakamababa at yun ang pipiliin.

Q: Hindi ba masyadong limiting din? Hindi gaya ng sa Japan na maraming binibigay na contractors?

SEN WIN: Actually, noong una sa Japan, isa lang yan but Japan has now a process also na available sa lahat. So I think we should also look at the total projects as a whole. That's what we need to understand nga kung paano nila pinipili ang loans dahil for example, how will they know kung ang offer ng mga Chinese contractors ay mas mura compared to Japan? that is part of the decision process.

Q: What do you say about the President has been frequently saying that he's going to soften his stand on the West Philippine Sea because of the many loans of our government to China?

SEN WIN: I would be very worried if the 2.1 trillion amount will go to China. If that entire amount will go to one country which is China, I will be very worried. But the DOF has demonstrated earlier that it is managing the portfolio. In fact, lumalabas nga sa aming internal estimates, mga 30% will go to China, almost 50% will go to Japan and the rest ay nakakalat na.

Q: Pero the Philippine government can still amend or revise whatever contract that it will enter with the Chinese government doon sa mga medyo vague na provisions?

SEN WIN: I can only answer that if I see the actual contract itself. Yun na nga yung aking reklamo kasi over the weekend, gustong gusto ko nang pag-aralan ang mga kontrata ng mabuti at yun ang missing sa kanilang website.

Q: Diba DOF na rin yung nagsabi na may confidentiality clause yung nasa kontrata?

SEN WIN: Well, according to Asec. Tan kanina, wala namang confidential. I don't agree on that confidentiality clause because those contracts were formed as part of our debt, kailangan nating malaman kung ano ang pinapasok ng gobyerno kasi babayaran natin yun. Ako personally, as a tax payer, I want to see those contracts para malaman nating mabuti kung ano ba ang pinapasok dahil tayo rin ang magbabayad nyan in the end so I don't agree with that confidentiality argument.

Q: Sir yung sa workers lang, ano yung hindi naka specify doon sa agreement na dapat Pilipino yung priority, wala sa dokumento?

SEN WIN: We have very strict laws in terms of labor kung ano yung pwedeng ibigay natin sa mga foreign workers and ano yung hindi. Kapag let's say yung skills na wala talaga dito, for example, wala na tayong engineer, hydro engineer, wala tayo dito then pwedeng mag-apply sila for the sake of finishing that project, pero kung mason ka, karpinetro ka, pintor ka, marami naman tayo dito. I don't think tama na meron pang foreign workers sa mga semi-skilled jobs--

Q: Hindi naman nakakabahala na walang ganung provision sa mismong contract?

SEN WIN: I think it's very difficult to identify kung ano talaga yung mga kailangan nila sa contract itself but definitely DOLE needs to be more proactive especially ngayon sa mga ganitong panahaon na maraming mga observation tungkol sa ganitong foreign workers. DOLE should be more proactive but to specify what type of job kailangan sa contract, medyo marami kasi some of the projects nakita ko malalaki eh 50 billion pesos that would require thousands of workers.

Q: Reasonable na up to 20-30% ang workers doon sa mga China loans?

SEN WIN: I think kung yung project is very complicated no, for example yung Pangil Project sa Tangub Misamis, yun, kailangan yun ng mas maraming technical workers doon, that's financed by Korea, nakita ko talagang malalim yung bay na yun so they would probably need more technical experts pero kung kalsada lang, pwedeng local lahat yan kasi gumagawa naman tayo ng kalsada madalas eh.

Q: Confidentiality clause, is that normal?

SEN WIN: As far as I know, hindi siya required because this is public debt, when you say public debt it still forms part of the amortization na babayaran natin lahat. There should be greater transparency when it comes to public debt.

Q: Sir pagbalik sa budget sisingilin mo sila?

SEN WIN: Sisingilin ko sila doon sa reforms on transparency, I think kanina NEDA agreed that they should be more transparent, DOF also agreed. All of us will have more confidence on what the government is entering kung lahat ng ito ay naka-publish sa kanilang website. So ini-invoke nila ang FOI, wala naman humihinto sa kanila kung mas mataas pa sa FOI ang gagawin nila, especially ngayon na maraming lumalabas na allegations.

Q: Information shared dito sa hearing, contradicts yung binabanggit ng Malacañang, the President said the amount of Chinese loans made available to the Philippines, softening the stance on the West Philippine Sea?

SEN WIN: The way I understand it, China pledged 3 billion dollars, so ang nakukuha pa lang natin is only 23 projects which is approximately less than 200 billion pesos. So may pledge sila pero ang ating pinapasukan ay maliit pa lang because we evaluate the loan portfolio. So again, I would be more worried kung lahat ng 2.1 trillion pumunta sa China, medyo nakakabahala yun pero since nakita ko maliit pa lang and portfolio na pinapasukan ng DOF, I think the DOF is very prudent in terms of entering different loans.

Q: Dalawang bridge yun?

SEN WIN: Hindi, yung Chico Dam and then yung Kaliwa Dam--

Q: Yung sa Binondo?

SEN WIN: Grant yun, grant siya.

Q: Masyado nga daw tayo nakakiling sa China, workers from China, loans from China?

SEN WIN: Dito sa hearing, in terms of loan, hindi ko nakikita na pinapaboran yung China, in terms of loan because its portfolio, in fact, mas Malaki pa ang Japan almost 50% pero titignan pa natin isa-isa yung provisions ng loan na pinasukan natin, doon natin makikita yung detalye.

Q: Ilan na yung pending, na up for approval?

SEN WIN: For China it's about 19 projects

Q: Was there ever a time that we had to give up projects like in Sri Lanka na nangyari ganun?

SEN WIN: Tinignan ko yung cases sa Sri Lanka sa Djibouti, in Pakistan, in other countries that are labeled debt trap and the way I understand it, in their case, there's two definitions of debt trap; unang definition is pahiram sila ng pahiram tapos hindi mabayaran, pangalawa nagpapahiram sila at meron silang collateral doon, resources for assets. In this case yung una, ang debt to GDP ratio natin is quite healthy, pababa na siya, it will reach 40% in the next few years and pangalawa sa mga loan agreement in the past di ko nakita na binenta natin yung ating assets or sinasangla yung ating mga resources.

Q: Pag China, bidding muna, hindi ba unique?

SEN WIN: Its quite unique, in fact ngayon ko nga lang nalaman yan. Ang importante ngayon is kung yung presyo na yun mas mataas o mas mababa ba? Ngayon ko nga lang nalaman na iba yung proseso nila so we told them to submit to us their process kung mas mababa pa yung mga projects na bini-bid ng China.

Q: Hindi ba favor sa China yun?

SEN WIN: Well it's normal in tide loans, ang tawag nila tide loans, ang Korea ganyan din, ang Japan ganyan din typically meron na talaga silang supplier of contractor kasi ang argument nila mura nga yung loan so mura na yung loan, mahaba pa yung babayaran na tenor, dapat kami naman ang gagawa, para technology namin, supplier namin, typical ODA tide loan.

Q: Process daw ang problema, nauuna yung bidding?

SEN WIN: Ngayon ko ng lang nalaman yan na iba yung process, ngayon, ang pinapasubmit ko sa kanila, kung mas mababa ba siya? For example, kung itong project is 1 billion, 1 billion ba siya and below? Dahil dito natin makikita kung effective ang kanilang bidding process.

Q: Doon sa bidding process, half have not gone into their advance stages, are there indications from the government that they will prefer China in terms of financing or is the remaining projects still open?

SEN WIN: From our review, in the remaining reviews of the projects, there are 75 projects, nakakalat siya, we made a tabulation in terms of value, almost 30% will go to China, close to 50% will go to Japan, and some will be going to ADB world bank and other sources.

Q: Sir doon sa 19 tapos na yung dalawa diba? So 17 na lang yung iniintay natin?

SEN WIN: 19 yun, tapos na yung dalawa.

NARCO-LIST

Q: Narco-list?

SEN WIN: Pag release ng narco-list dapat kasuhan na kaagad dahil yung pag release ng narco list, hindi rin assurance yan na matatalo yung kandidato. In fact, ang gagawin lang ng kandidato, sasabhin niya sa baba "na namumulitika, pinupulitika ng kalaban, kawawa naman ako" nakita na natin yan over and over again. Remember the Barangay elections? ganyan din eh at sinabi lang ng mga elected officials na pinupulitika sila. So the best case is, if they have information or intelligence, ilabas na nila yun dahil yung intelligence and information na yun pwedeng magamita sa Korte para matanggal yung mga narco-politicians na yan. So, I think it's a process, pag release ng narco-list dapat kasuhan rin kaagad kung hindi, wala rin mananalo at mananalo din yun.

Q: Pag manipulate ng House doon sa national budget 2019?

SEN WIN: Dapat hindi na kasi na-ratify na. Strictly speaking they cannot touch the budget anymore because it has already been ratified by both houses. Co-equal kami, babantayan dapat yan kung meron. For example, may pinalitan tapos wala sa records natin dito, that will create problems, actually that can create a constitutional impasse kung iba yung sa kanila at iba yung atin.

Q: Can the Senate question that sir?

SEN WIN: Yes of course, everything is on record even in the bicameral conference meeting on the record naman yan so lalabas lahat yan--

Q: Hindi ba makaka delay yun sa transmission sa Malacañang?

SEN WIN: Ang importante diyan, after drafting the budget in the House, both the House and the Senate should reconcile their records. We're not accusing them naman of doing something, ang important lang ay dapat magkapareho yung records and same thing here in the Senate dapat i-check ng mabuti.

Q: Epekto ng nakabitin na yung budget?

SEN WIN: Malaking impact satin yan if hindi maipasa yung budget it will affect our economic growth, it will slow down. We saw last year it's almost around 6% level at baka bumaba pa so the sooner we can approve the budget, the sooner we can spend on infrastructure the better for us.

Q: so ibig-sabihin dapat yung House hands-off na?

SEN WIN: Hindi naman, since na-ratify na ito the Executive ang may prerogative not to push this kasi sila yung may responsibility to execute the projects. So I think the Executive should now exert effort na ilabas na itong budget, mapirmahan na ng Presidente, at ma-execute na ng mga ahensya.

Q: In what way should the Executive step-in?

SEN WIN: First of all, they can call the leadership and tell them na tapusin na itong mga paperwork and to transmit to us already the official copy.

Q: do you support Senator Ping's suggestion for the SP not to sign the enrolled bill if ever [hindi reconciled]?

SEN WIN: Yeah of course, I support that kung hindi pareho, more-so dapat hindi pirmahan yan.